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[Music]

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this is somewhere in the skies with

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Ryan's bread

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[Music]

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our number of years CIA had been

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tracking Soviet work in the so-called

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ESP area and they're really concerned

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because the Soviets including the KGB

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we're spending millions of dollars every

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year on this kind of phenomena they're

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very concerned about what could be being

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done to us they were specifically

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interested in whether individuals could

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extract information or get information

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from remote sites or from hidden

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material and so it was critical to them

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to find out you know just what abilities

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do people have a batch of declassified

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CIA documents revealed the agencies

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dealing with the paranormal is now

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official according to the secret files

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the Central Intelligence Agency used a

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team of military trained telepathic

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individuals during the Iran embassy

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siege nearly forty years ago

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the program named grill flame was

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established in 1975 and began as

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research into paranormal abilities but

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his star turn came in 1979 when the

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telepaths were used to provide

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information on where the hostages were

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being held inside the embassy and the

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state of their health it really comes of

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no surprise that our intelligence

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agencies would attempt to obtain

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information by any means necessary but

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as we heard from former director of

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projects

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dr. Harold put off the CIA went to such

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great lengths during the Cold War as to

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bring in psychics who they believed

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could Remote View Soviet and KGB targets

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and spy on them as we also heard this

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was later used in project grill flame

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during the Iran embassy siege the

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overall project was officially

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terminated in 1995 having reached no

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solid conclusions on the accuracy of

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remote viewing and psychic abilities but

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the CIA's involvement goes far deeper

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than this and as we'll hear from today's

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guests the wars waged with the mind and

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a Military Intelligence sense may still

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be far from

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any Jacobson is a journalist

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best-selling author in 2016 Pulitzer

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Prize finalist her books area51

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Operation Paperclip and the Pentagon's

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brain were New York Times bestsellers

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and have been collectively published in

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many languages today we'll be talking

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about her newest book phenomenon the

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secret history of the US government's

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investigations into extrasensory

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perception and psychokinesis we'll hear

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how the idea of psychic warfare all

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began in the u.s. who was involved and

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even how this all can be connected to

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the UFO topic as a whole so without

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further ado let's get to the interview

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with Annie Jacobsen Annie thank you so

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much for joining me today well thank you

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for having me

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it's an absolute pleasure I've been

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following your work for a while now and

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if there's anything I've I've learned

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from reading all your books there is

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definitely a running theme of digging

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deep into the Intelligence Agency

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apparatus and this new book does just

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that as well but with a very interesting

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topic and that's psychokinesis in ESP

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and you found a pretty interesting link

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that ties all your books together

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something that they all seem to always

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come back to would you mind

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touching on that briefly with us yes and

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thank you for noticing that that all

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roads lead to the Nazis at least when

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you're a national security reporter

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covering war weapons u.s. national

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security and secrets and phenomena is no

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different I began the story the kind of

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launch point is this discovery by US

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intelligence agents at the end of the

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war they were called Operation owl sauce

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and they discover a weird trove of

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Heinrich Heinrich Himmler's Science

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Department documents the department was

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called das on an air Bay and this unit

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within it explored extrasensory

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perception psychokinesis map dowsing and

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then all

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so very extreme forms of the occult

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which Himmler was pursuing and pushing

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among his SS men and we discovered this

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weird cache of documents and samuel

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goudsmit who was the lead physicist at

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the time hunting down atomic secrets and

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you know biological weapons secrets and

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all these other things I ride my other

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book Operation Paperclip kind of cast

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aside this weirdo what he thought was a

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sort of weird a supernatural research

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but it comes back into play later

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because you're a few years later because

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what we find out that the Soviets got

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the other half of the dust on an IRA

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documents that dealt with the

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supernatural if you will and naturally I

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think the launching point for this

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extraordinary battle between science and

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the supernatural is it fact is it

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fantasy you know and this this question

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drives the narrative and boy was it

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intensely interesting to research and

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report on this because it's such a

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mystery oh I can I can only imagine and

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I mean and within your your research you

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do mention that toward the end of world

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war two you in mixing that magic and the

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supernatural that these files were split

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amongst us and the Russians which is

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extremely enticing in terms of ESP and

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psychokinesis for our listeners who may

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not really know the difference between

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ESP and psychokinesis could you like

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could you briefly give us the cliff

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notes on that of course I mean

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extrasensory perception is what ESP

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stands for and it's it's it almost says

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it says it itself it's gaining knowledge

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from the means other than the five known

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senses and so the sixth sense has in the

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modern era kind of been conflated with

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the idea of seeing ghosts I think

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largely because of the movie by that

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same title but the Sixth Sense over over

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a broader period of decades has really

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been used to mean that I the kind of

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let's say

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even Natori Power an idea of

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precognition an idea that you could see

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the future then you could know the

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unknown that you could also have

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knowledge about you know information

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that could be used as what the yet the

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CIA would call intelligence collection

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psychokinesis on the other hand is in

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short summary using the mind to affect

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matter so scientific skeptics would tell

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you that's pseudoscience and that's not

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possible people who are in the work and

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study this say oh yes it is and there's

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a whole host of psychokinetic abilities

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that range from say you know bending a

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spoon with the tip of the tongue and I

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mean a tip of the of the fingertip and

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the command Bend as a regular does or

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even meditation or like monk monks who

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are able to sit in freezing cold water

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and actually adjust their body

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temperature so that they don't suffer

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from hypothermia

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that's the gamut of psychokinetic

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abilities right right and we've heard

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you know similar accounts of like this

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is what we could consider a mutant as it

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were if you were looking at it from a

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comic book standpoint but on a more

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serious level any in the early days of

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what we now know as MKULTRA the CIA if

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I'm correct they used magicians

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hypnotists and even a witch this really

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caught my attention in your book could

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you tell us a little about Sybil leak

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and her work with the the US

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intelligence agency what's interesting

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about her is she's been completely you

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know buried if you will her work as I

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found with a number of others really

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interesting people who pop up here in my

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book because there is so much stigma

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attached to it Sybil leak was a famous

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witch in Britain she was a white witch

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meaning she only used her powers for

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good but

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he allegedly left England in 1944

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because witches were still being

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persecuted according to her and I

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interviewed her son who's in charge of

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all of her papers he lives here in the

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United States and is interestingly a

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nasa photographer but she allegedly

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moved here because she was being

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persecuted but in truth she became a CIA

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asset and she was used along with a

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number of other people more famously in

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the 50s like magicians very separate

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subject which is using magicians

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stage magicians who are actually using

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tricks and deception to fool someone

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into believing something believing in

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psychokinesis whereas those who have

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psychokinetic powers are working from

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the premise that they actually have a

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yet on scientifically unknown ability to

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affect matter with their mind

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interesting and now you did mention the

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name Eric Geller a moment ago and could

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you briefly run us through who this guy

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was in his connection with the CIA

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he was a CIA asset and we know that now

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from these declassified documents that I

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report on in the book and you know

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people know Erie Geller as the spoon

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bender so you might and you know there's

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a million different reasons why people

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might have a preconception in their mind

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that he's a fraud or a magician and

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there's a million reasons why people

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might swear by his talents all

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preconceptions I what I aim to do in the

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book in my hours and hours of interviews

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with Geller was to try and neutrally

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present the facts of Geller's story and

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let the reader decide what they think

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because I found Geller remarkable I mean

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I interviewed him at his home in London

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and I also interviewed him I spent

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several days with him in Israel

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interviewing him

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just a remarkable part of phenomenon I

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think but the his entree into

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intelligence collection where the CIA

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began in the 70s when he became this

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famous figure sort of a pop-culture

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figure doing the talk show circuit

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spending you know spoons with his mind

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and also reading having telepathy like

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putting up an often trick they would do

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with Geller as someone would draw out a

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sketch and then put it in a sealed

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envelope Geller would be sitting in this

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talk show you know with a talk-show host

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and then he would be given the sealed

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envelope and he would be asked to draw

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it and you know time and again he would

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do a remarkable assimilation of the

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drawing and people just went crazy for

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him plus he was handsome plus he had

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this lovely accent Israeli accent plus

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he was charming and he just really you

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know took on the scene you may say well

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what would what what did the CIA have

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care about any of that what they cared

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about was his alleged psychokinetic

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abilities the fact that he could you

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know bend a spoon with his finger and

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the command bend and specifically what

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was worrisome to them and again these

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are declassified Defense Department

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reports that show that state you know if

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Geller could do this to a spoon what

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might he be able to do to the delicate

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electronic system on an ICBM carrying a

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nuclear warhead that's what they cared

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00:13:03,249 --> 00:12:59,249
about and they brought Geller to the

279
00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:03,259
United States to test him in a lab under

280
00:13:12,139 --> 00:13:07,649
CIA handlers and scientists physicists

281
00:13:14,419 --> 00:13:12,149
who were commissioned by the CIA to work

282
00:13:17,989 --> 00:13:14,429
on this research program with remarkable

283
00:13:21,340 --> 00:13:17,999
results I mean remarkable results CIA

284
00:13:24,259 --> 00:13:21,350
drawing the inescapable conclusion that

285
00:13:26,030 --> 00:13:24,269
his powers existed as a real phenomenon

286
00:13:28,249 --> 00:13:26,040
they couldn't explain why mm-hmm that's

287
00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:28,259
absolutely fascinating that the CIA

288
00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:31,529
would ultimately admit that yes ESP

289
00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:34,200
psychokinesis are real

290
00:13:41,270 --> 00:13:38,690
no the the debate I guess would be

291
00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:41,280
someone like Erie Geller this seemed to

292
00:13:45,860 --> 00:13:43,620
have come at birth this came natural but

293
00:13:47,690 --> 00:13:45,870
you also did some heavy research into

294
00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:47,700
the debate within the intelligence

295
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:51,030
agencies on if people could be trained

296
00:13:56,090 --> 00:13:53,850
to be come psychic now is that true what

297
00:13:58,340 --> 00:13:56,100
was this debate and that's the

298
00:14:00,920 --> 00:13:58,350
battleground that most interested me

299
00:14:02,750 --> 00:14:00,930
because it was it's it's a debate I

300
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:02,760
could really wrap my head around as a

301
00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:05,490
journalist I mean it's hard to just have

302
00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:07,920
two sides shouting at one another you

303
00:14:12,350 --> 00:14:10,380
know ESP is real and then that would be

304
00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:12,360
the the people in the work and then the

305
00:14:16,220 --> 00:14:14,790
skeptics saying ESP is nonsense and

306
00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:16,230
they're all charlatans fraudsters and

307
00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:18,300
snake oil salesmen I mean there's very

308
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:19,950
little room for journalism in that

309
00:14:23,810 --> 00:14:21,690
debate because the two sides are so

310
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:23,820
entrenched and in essence what they do

311
00:14:29,690 --> 00:14:26,970
is just you know they kind of surround

312
00:14:32,330 --> 00:14:29,700
themselves with a lot of individuals who

313
00:14:33,710 --> 00:14:32,340
support only their ideas and that

314
00:14:35,630 --> 00:14:33,720
they're kind of existing in an echo

315
00:14:38,030 --> 00:14:35,640
chamber again that's my opinion what I

316
00:14:40,670 --> 00:14:38,040
wanted to do is look at the debates

317
00:14:45,650 --> 00:14:40,680
within the debates to try to you know

318
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:45,660
uncover the essence of what might mean

319
00:14:48,860 --> 00:14:47,310
something for the future because we'll

320
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:48,870
get to this later but my goodness the

321
00:14:53,300 --> 00:14:50,850
research is still going on today

322
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:53,310
that's surprised even a number of the

323
00:14:57,950 --> 00:14:55,050
scientists who have worked on these

324
00:15:02,270 --> 00:14:57,960
programs for decades so the debate began

325
00:15:05,270 --> 00:15:02,280
at the CIA with a very legendary CIA

326
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:05,280
doctor named dr. Christopher green he

327
00:15:11,420 --> 00:15:07,050
goes by KITT Green and he was the

328
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:11,430
original physiologist assigned to look

329
00:15:19,010 --> 00:15:15,690
at the biology the physiology the human

330
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:19,020
you know interior if you will of Geller

331
00:15:24,890 --> 00:15:22,320
of another super psychic named Ingo

332
00:15:27,260 --> 00:15:24,900
Swann another super psychic named Pat

333
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:27,270
price all of who were the leading

334
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:29,970
psychics at CIA during for CIA during

335
00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:33,600
the 70's and greens job was to examine

336
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:36,260
them in every possible you know

337
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:38,370
neurological biological physiological

338
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:41,010
test that that existed in the 70s which

339
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:43,050
compared to what we have today was not a

340
00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:46,050
lot I mean the MRI was just coming

341
00:15:51,630 --> 00:15:47,590
online that was excite

342
00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:51,640
in 1973 and green would look at these

343
00:15:57,269 --> 00:15:53,110
individuals and then they were being

344
00:15:59,130 --> 00:15:57,279
tested by physicists and scientists to

345
00:16:01,769 --> 00:15:59,140
look at their performance and their

346
00:16:05,060 --> 00:16:01,779
conclusion as a whole was and I'm

347
00:16:08,460 --> 00:16:05,070
paraphrasing here but we don't know why

348
00:16:11,340 --> 00:16:08,470
they have the talent that they have but

349
00:16:14,990 --> 00:16:11,350
we know that it's individualistic and

350
00:16:18,090 --> 00:16:15,000
the analogy that both green and put off

351
00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:18,100
and Jacque Valais who was also involved

352
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:21,100
in this told me is that they said the

353
00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:23,290
best analogy is the Mozart analogy so

354
00:16:28,410 --> 00:16:26,470
Annie can't sing in the shower and you

355
00:16:32,490 --> 00:16:28,420
think of what Mozart was capable in

356
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:32,500
terms of music and you just immediately

357
00:16:40,290 --> 00:16:36,250
get the idea of a ha so they would say

358
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:40,300
Mozart was a supernormal I just have

359
00:16:46,650 --> 00:16:45,010
normal bad singing voice Heat Mozart is

360
00:16:50,250 --> 00:16:46,660
a super normal not a paranormal but a

361
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:50,260
super normal and they chose in that kind

362
00:16:56,070 --> 00:16:52,810
of CI a way of hey let's live in the

363
00:16:57,630 --> 00:16:56,080
gray area because remember CIA always

364
00:17:02,190 --> 00:16:57,640
has a job to do which is intelligence

365
00:17:04,410 --> 00:17:02,200
collection so they wanted to exploit the

366
00:17:07,770 --> 00:17:04,420
talents that the Gellers the Pat prices

367
00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:07,780
in the Ingo Swans had and use that for

368
00:17:11,910 --> 00:17:08,980
their purposes and they were less

369
00:17:14,370 --> 00:17:11,920
concerned with trying to nail down is it

370
00:17:16,189 --> 00:17:14,380
real is it fact is it fantasy they were

371
00:17:18,569 --> 00:17:16,199
just saying ok it works in limited

372
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:18,579
extraordinarily strange and bizarre

373
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:20,890
cases and yes it's not repeatable but

374
00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:22,720
never mind about that I mean it's not

375
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:24,130
consistently good people and they

376
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:26,079
focused on the individuals and they felt

377
00:17:32,610 --> 00:17:29,440
this is a Mozart like talent this sixth

378
00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:32,620
sense right and I and I would assume you

379
00:17:36,810 --> 00:17:34,780
know it's not so much of if it's real or

380
00:17:39,330 --> 00:17:36,820
not but how it can benefit the

381
00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:39,340
intelligence agencies and you know your

382
00:17:43,919 --> 00:17:41,320
your past work showing how it can

383
00:17:46,770 --> 00:17:43,929
benefit the military-industrial complex

384
00:17:47,910 --> 00:17:46,780
I would assume and I found these

385
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:47,920
marvelous marvelous

386
00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:50,410
you know once formally classified

387
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:52,990
documents that say almost exactly that

388
00:18:01,950 --> 00:17:55,690
which is never mind you know the debate

389
00:18:05,070 --> 00:18:01,960
what can we the CIA do to exploit this

390
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:05,080
and that I found very interesting and it

391
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:08,890
gave a lot of room for you know and of

392
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:10,570
course these are highly classified

393
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:13,450
programs so no one had to know I mean

394
00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:16,240
they didn't have to worry about you know

395
00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:18,220
such-and-such senator finding out about

396
00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:21,280
it and you know having a cow over this

397
00:18:26,130 --> 00:18:23,470
what would be interpreted as way as

398
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:26,140
wasteful money although that debate I

399
00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:29,770
really I found you know useless because

400
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:32,020
the amount of money that was spent on

401
00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:34,450
these programs is so small compared to

402
00:18:37,650 --> 00:18:35,830
the budgets that I looked at from my

403
00:18:40,380 --> 00:18:37,660
previous book the Pentagon's brain about

404
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:40,390
DARPA but in any event the CIA was able

405
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:44,250
to kind of play fast and loose with the

406
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:47,890
the more stick the ideas of this area of

407
00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:49,210
research that are stigmatized

408
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:51,190
traditionally because they could rise

409
00:18:56,310 --> 00:18:53,980
above the fray take their work really

410
00:19:00,780 --> 00:18:56,320
seriously and figure out the best way to

411
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:00,790
exploit this talent but then the CIA ran

412
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:04,510
into trouble in the 70s with its MKULTRA

413
00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:07,210
programs being exposed it's you know LSD

414
00:19:11,730 --> 00:19:09,520
programs being exposed and suddenly the

415
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:11,740
CIA found itself in a whole heap of

416
00:19:16,169 --> 00:19:13,690
trouble during the church committee

417
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:16,179
hearings and the program needed to go

418
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:18,970
because it was too incendiary were

419
00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:22,000
anyone to find out about it and so

420
00:19:27,780 --> 00:19:24,820
before up to that point DoD had been a

421
00:19:33,060 --> 00:19:27,790
client of CIA so you know and meaning

422
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:33,070
NSA also FBI Secret Service you name it

423
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:34,690
if the Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted some

424
00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:36,850
information from psychics they would go

425
00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:39,220
to the CIA give them a request and then

426
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:41,830
the CIA would task the psychics on it

427
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:43,450
well after the church Commission

428
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:45,490
hearings that all changed and the

429
00:19:52,530 --> 00:19:49,450
program was inherited by DoD and the

430
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:52,540
things really shifted there and there

431
00:19:57,780 --> 00:19:55,360
was a movement away from this idea that

432
00:19:59,909 --> 00:19:57,790
its individualistic that it's the Mozart

433
00:20:02,220 --> 00:19:59,919
analogy and it moved toward the idea of

434
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:02,230
hey ESP is something that we can train

435
00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:06,730
soldiers to be able to do and and grave

436
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:09,580
problems arose absolutely yeah you know

437
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:11,290
when when the question of ethics comes

438
00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:14,050
into mind you you really have to wonder

439
00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:14,830
like how

440
00:20:21,420 --> 00:20:17,590
are they willing to go and at whose

441
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:21,430
expense we know many scientists have

442
00:20:26,490 --> 00:20:23,170
been exploited in terms of these types

443
00:20:28,830 --> 00:20:26,500
of things and their theories and you

444
00:20:30,020 --> 00:20:28,840
spoke to one scientist who worked on

445
00:20:33,690 --> 00:20:30,030
something called the quantum

446
00:20:35,790 --> 00:20:33,700
entanglement theory I I found this

447
00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:35,800
deeply fascinating could you give us a

448
00:20:44,010 --> 00:20:38,590
brief brief summation any of just

449
00:20:46,350 --> 00:20:44,020
exactly what this theory entails so what

450
00:20:47,730 --> 00:20:46,360
what I really enjoyed in the narrative

451
00:20:50,670 --> 00:20:47,740
and what I loved about writing narrative

452
00:20:52,860 --> 00:20:50,680
nonfiction is I find these elderly

453
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:52,870
statesmen if you will so this is the

454
00:20:56,910 --> 00:20:54,880
sort of scientists who were the leads in

455
00:21:00,780 --> 00:20:56,920
these programs in the 70s when they were

456
00:21:03,180 --> 00:21:00,790
young and what and then interview them

457
00:21:05,730 --> 00:21:03,190
and look at how they evolved as

458
00:21:08,610 --> 00:21:05,740
scientists as you know human beings in

459
00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:08,620
their vision over time and where they

460
00:21:16,020 --> 00:21:11,940
are today and Dale Graff was the

461
00:21:19,650 --> 00:21:16,030
scientist who really began the program

462
00:21:23,910 --> 00:21:19,660
at DoD so he learned about the CIA

463
00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:23,920
program from put off from what was being

464
00:21:29,340 --> 00:21:26,080
he took that as a model brought it to

465
00:21:32,190 --> 00:21:29,350
the Pentagon and became the progenitor

466
00:21:35,370 --> 00:21:32,200
of all these other programs that were

467
00:21:36,990 --> 00:21:35,380
that were that existed for the next 20

468
00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:37,000
years basically from 9:00 to the late

469
00:21:42,450 --> 00:21:40,120
1970s all the way until the downfall of

470
00:21:46,110 --> 00:21:42,460
the program in the mid 90s Graff was in

471
00:21:48,990 --> 00:21:46,120
charge Graff was that was in essence

472
00:21:50,610 --> 00:21:49,000
second-in-command to a scientist named

473
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:50,620
dr. Jack Verona at the Defense

474
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:53,110
Intelligence Agency so what is Graff

475
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:55,930
doing now well he took me to a call he's

476
00:22:01,290 --> 00:21:58,960
still in the work and his story is

477
00:22:02,550 --> 00:22:01,300
particularly interesting because you

478
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:02,560
have that idea that we talked about

479
00:22:06,510 --> 00:22:05,290
either is it biological okay let me back

480
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:06,520
up for a moment to give you a little

481
00:22:12,990 --> 00:22:09,910
little little groundwork here so the

482
00:22:14,820 --> 00:22:13,000
biological element of it is super

483
00:22:18,030 --> 00:22:14,830
interesting because it's saying this is

484
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:18,040
a talent from within but within those in

485
00:22:24,510 --> 00:22:22,240
the work there is another group that

486
00:22:28,110 --> 00:22:24,520
believes this is also the within is

487
00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:28,120
attached to though without okay now if

488
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:28,750
you wanted to

489
00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:30,370
scientific approach to that you can say

490
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:32,590
oh that's the Eureka moment that a

491
00:22:36,780 --> 00:22:34,510
number of scientists or Nobel laureates

492
00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:36,790
talk about where they are suddenly given

493
00:22:41,670 --> 00:22:39,070
kind of an inspiration of something

494
00:22:44,490 --> 00:22:41,680
almost a divine inspiration if you will

495
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:44,500
so there are individuals who pursue this

496
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:47,170
idea that it's not just a biological

497
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:49,330
from within it's from without there is

498
00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:51,760
some kind of a something that's where we

499
00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:53,860
get really tricky when you're talking in

500
00:22:58,800 --> 00:22:56,230
terms of a federal government because

501
00:23:00,360 --> 00:22:58,810
this touches upon the issues that you

502
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:00,370
are interested in which have to do with

503
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:02,770
ufology which have to do with an

504
00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:05,770
intelligence you know outside of our

505
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:09,220
universe if you will and many of the

506
00:23:16,460 --> 00:23:13,840
scientists adhere to that concept and I

507
00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:16,470
did not write about that in phenomena I

508
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:19,720
hint at it I talked a little bit about

509
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:23,170
it but I felt that it was a it's its own

510
00:23:27,210 --> 00:23:24,970
subject and I wanted to focus

511
00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:27,220
specifically on the battle the

512
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:29,350
battleground of extrasensory perception

513
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:31,690
in psychokinesis but it's understood

514
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:34,890
that those that that exists there and

515
00:23:41,340 --> 00:23:37,690
separate from that you have a very few

516
00:23:45,150 --> 00:23:41,350
amount of scientists Dale Graff among

517
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:45,160
them who accept that ESP is a real

518
00:23:48,570 --> 00:23:47,440
phenomenon that psychokinesis is a real

519
00:23:51,150 --> 00:23:48,580
for something nominal who have dedicated

520
00:23:53,550 --> 00:23:51,160
decades their entire life to this work

521
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:53,560
but they do not believe it is from

522
00:23:58,890 --> 00:23:55,870
without at all they are the antithesis

523
00:24:00,750 --> 00:23:58,900
of a supernatural estill they believe

524
00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:00,760
that it has to do with biology and it

525
00:24:05,610 --> 00:24:02,230
has to do with quantum physics and

526
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:05,620
that's where graph sits on the spectrum

527
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:08,010
which I found very interesting he

528
00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:12,730
rejects any kind of you know though

529
00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:14,950
without any kind of intelligence higher

530
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:16,900
intelligence if you will and he says

531
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:18,880
this is basic quantum physics it's

532
00:24:24,180 --> 00:24:22,050
something that Einstein referred to

533
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:24,190
quantum entanglement is something that

534
00:24:30,420 --> 00:24:26,890
Einstein referred to as spooky action at

535
00:24:32,940 --> 00:24:30,430
a distance and in the simplest terms the

536
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:32,950
way different physicists explained it to

537
00:24:42,180 --> 00:24:36,910
me is that if you have two electrons

538
00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:42,190
near one another they they jiggle one

539
00:24:44,460 --> 00:24:42,790
another let

540
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:44,470
that's the metaphor okay and if you

541
00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:48,730
separate them even by as much as a

542
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:52,390
galaxy as me shukaku said that's where

543
00:24:58,260 --> 00:24:54,690
the fireworks begin because they will

544
00:25:03,390 --> 00:24:58,270
also vibrate meaning they will they are

545
00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:03,400
connected they are inherently wiggling

546
00:25:07,710 --> 00:25:05,260
with one another aware of one another

547
00:25:10,410 --> 00:25:07,720
even if you separate them as far away as

548
00:25:13,860 --> 00:25:10,420
a galaxy this was an idea spooky action

549
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:13,870
at a distance posited by Einstein you

550
00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:17,290
know but never able to be proved in the

551
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:20,830
laboratory well now in 2017 you have

552
00:25:24,750 --> 00:25:22,930
scientists around the world

553
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:24,760
conducting these experiments where

554
00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:26,640
they're able to demonstrate that

555
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:30,400
electrons have you know essentially are

556
00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:32,530
communicating with one another around

557
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:34,900
the world that would have to involve

558
00:25:38,490 --> 00:25:36,730
faster than light travel and that's

559
00:25:41,130 --> 00:25:38,500
where you get complicated and that's

560
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:41,140
where you have a guy like Graf says his

561
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:43,840
idea for this and this is theoretical

562
00:25:54,570 --> 00:25:49,840
physicist physics now that this could

563
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:54,580
account for extrasensory perception for

564
00:25:59,220 --> 00:25:56,610
faster than night light

565
00:26:03,180 --> 00:25:59,230
information-gathering for knowing what's

566
00:26:05,970 --> 00:26:03,190
happening across the world in this in

567
00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:05,980
this moment and that concept is called

568
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:08,590
retro causation and I write about in the

569
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:11,890
book attending a conference at UC San

570
00:26:16,770 --> 00:26:13,810
Diego with the world's leading

571
00:26:20,190 --> 00:26:16,780
physicists in this area who pursue this

572
00:26:22,290 --> 00:26:20,200
line of thought as science of the future

573
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:22,300
and I think one of the things I enjoy

574
00:26:28,290 --> 00:26:24,640
most about writing about these very

575
00:26:31,020 --> 00:26:28,300
esoteric concepts is getting the world's

576
00:26:33,060 --> 00:26:31,030
experts to explain it to me in layman's

577
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:33,070
terms because the people who are the

578
00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:35,020
smartest in these subjects they're

579
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:37,780
really able to as Einstein said you

580
00:26:44,130 --> 00:26:40,210
should be able to explain it to a child

581
00:26:46,530 --> 00:26:44,140
that's how easy it is right yeah you

582
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:46,540
know the you're right the the brightest

583
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:48,850
of individuals should be able to you

584
00:26:53,310 --> 00:26:50,850
know quote unquote dumb it down as

585
00:26:56,169 --> 00:26:53,320
simplest of terms as they can

586
00:26:58,889 --> 00:26:56,179
that's an absolutely fascinating theory

587
00:27:03,759 --> 00:26:58,899
and I know others have looked into

588
00:27:05,469 --> 00:27:03,769
things such as quantum mechanics Edgar

589
00:27:08,639 --> 00:27:05,479
Mitchell comes to mind who's done a lot

590
00:27:11,950 --> 00:27:08,649
of work within the noetic sciences and

591
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:11,960
consciousness but you have a very

592
00:27:16,239 --> 00:27:14,090
interesting story in your book about

593
00:27:18,609 --> 00:27:16,249
Edgar Mitchell who we know is the sixth

594
00:27:20,889 --> 00:27:18,619
man to walk on the moon and this has to

595
00:27:23,109 --> 00:27:20,899
do with the moon would you mind telling

596
00:27:23,919 --> 00:27:23,119
us this story it's absolutely

597
00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:23,929
fascinating

598
00:27:30,669 --> 00:27:27,049
I loved interviewing Edgar Mitchell and

599
00:27:32,469 --> 00:27:30,679
you know he he was such a sort of hero

600
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:32,479
to me in many regards and I'll tell you

601
00:27:38,349 --> 00:27:36,710
why I get the ideas for my books usually

602
00:27:40,330 --> 00:27:38,359
when I'm finishing up the previous book

603
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:40,340
so I was the Pentagon's brain in the

604
00:27:45,609 --> 00:27:42,080
book about DARPA is really about hard

605
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:45,619
science and involved a lot of you know

606
00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:48,559
space science if you will because that's

607
00:27:54,099 --> 00:27:51,529
why DARPA was founded and I came across

608
00:27:57,249 --> 00:27:54,109
in the Apollo image library a photograph

609
00:27:58,570 --> 00:27:57,259
of a man on the moon but if you look an

610
00:28:01,359 --> 00:27:58,580
astronaut on the moon but if you look

611
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:01,369
closely in his gloved hand you realize

612
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:05,690
he's reading a document he's reading a

613
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:07,129
piece of paper on the moon and I thought

614
00:28:11,919 --> 00:28:09,710
like my god this is such an incredible

615
00:28:14,769 --> 00:28:11,929
image of the most advanced science you

616
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:14,779
know space travel and yet then you have

617
00:28:20,499 --> 00:28:17,840
like pre science

618
00:28:22,570 --> 00:28:20,509
I mean proto science that's what writing

619
00:28:24,190 --> 00:28:22,580
is I mean without writing without cute

620
00:28:27,719 --> 00:28:24,200
you know the original writing which we

621
00:28:31,509 --> 00:28:27,729
now believe is canary form from sort of

622
00:28:35,739 --> 00:28:31,519
2800 BC without writing we wouldn't have

623
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:35,749
science and so here here's this here was

624
00:28:41,019 --> 00:28:38,559
this image which contained these two

625
00:28:42,399 --> 00:28:41,029
concepts in a single image and I just

626
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:42,409
found it remarkable but more

627
00:28:45,849 --> 00:28:43,970
specifically I have to know what that

628
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:45,859
astronaut was reading right why would he

629
00:28:49,509 --> 00:28:48,289
be reading on the moon and I went I

630
00:28:52,239 --> 00:28:49,519
tracked him down it was Edgar Mitchell

631
00:28:57,039 --> 00:28:52,249
Apollo 14 and what he told me is that he

632
00:28:59,349 --> 00:28:57,049
was reading a map my god he was reading

633
00:29:03,039 --> 00:28:59,359
here is a photograph of a man on the

634
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:03,049
moon reading a map of the moon on the

635
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:05,610
moon why because they were

636
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:09,210
lost and I found this again so human you

637
00:29:18,289 --> 00:29:14,970
could travel 240,000 miles Mitchell was

638
00:29:21,470 --> 00:29:18,299
the pilot on the antara landing craft he

639
00:29:25,030 --> 00:29:21,480
sat down the spacecraft with an 87 feet

640
00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:25,040
of the target and then they got lost

641
00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:29,700
locally I mean what a brilliant I mean

642
00:29:34,250 --> 00:29:32,280
you know the quest for phenomena the

643
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:34,260
quest is in fact is it's fantasy science

644
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:37,170
pursue per natural this is hogwash this

645
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:38,640
is going to lead us to new discoveries

646
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:42,720
that debate so much inherent in all of

647
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:45,120
that is about getting lost I mean you

648
00:29:49,909 --> 00:29:47,610
have to be able to get lost to find your

649
00:29:50,810 --> 00:29:49,919
way I believe every single one of my

650
00:29:53,690 --> 00:29:50,820
four books

651
00:29:57,169 --> 00:29:53,700
it was amazing too right for me because

652
00:29:59,299 --> 00:29:57,179
I had elderly statesmen the scientists

653
00:30:01,190 --> 00:29:59,309
talking to me not just about their

654
00:30:03,530 --> 00:30:01,200
incredible success stories but about

655
00:30:06,010 --> 00:30:03,540
their failures about when they felt lost

656
00:30:10,580 --> 00:30:06,020
you know because that is how you can

657
00:30:13,490 --> 00:30:10,590
really I think grow as a society and you

658
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:13,500
know as a human and here was Mitchell

659
00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:15,450
saying I got lost on the moon and it was

660
00:30:21,169 --> 00:30:17,760
devastating to him because as he said

661
00:30:22,970 --> 00:30:21,179
they got lost they could not find their

662
00:30:26,180 --> 00:30:22,980
target which was cone crater they were

663
00:30:28,010 --> 00:30:26,190
supposed to grab some rocks from inside

664
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:28,020
of cone crater which was a meteorite

665
00:30:32,090 --> 00:30:30,510
crater geologist back on earth believed

666
00:30:34,940 --> 00:30:32,100
if they could only bring these rocks

667
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:34,950
home they might be able to solve the

668
00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:37,410
ageless mystery of how the moon was

669
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:40,500
actually formed from the earth I mean

670
00:30:45,770 --> 00:30:43,530
talk about a tall order they got lost

671
00:30:48,110 --> 00:30:45,780
they couldn't reach the target and they

672
00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:48,120
had to come home and Mitchell said he

673
00:30:53,659 --> 00:30:50,880
was devastated but it was on that flight

674
00:30:55,850 --> 00:30:53,669
home that he had what I write about a

675
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:55,860
lot in the book is what was called a

676
00:31:00,620 --> 00:30:58,320
conversion moment looking out one of the

677
00:31:03,130 --> 00:31:00,630
windows of the spacecraft looking out

678
00:31:05,299 --> 00:31:03,140
into space looking out into the universe

679
00:31:08,870 --> 00:31:05,309
Mitchell told me that he became

680
00:31:12,409 --> 00:31:08,880
absolutely convinced that man was not

681
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:12,419
just what we thought that man's ability

682
00:31:16,460 --> 00:31:14,850
the reaches of knowledge that we were we

683
00:31:17,660 --> 00:31:16,470
were thinking small they were so much

684
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:17,670
bigger than that

685
00:31:23,570 --> 00:31:20,210
and he believed the answer lay in

686
00:31:26,990 --> 00:31:23,580
consciousness and so he came back from

687
00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:27,000
not from the moon he quit NASA divorced

688
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:30,420
his wife made all new friends dedicated

689
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:32,690
the rest of his life toward research

690
00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:36,720
into ESP psychokinesis and he became a

691
00:31:41,390 --> 00:31:39,240
front for the CIA and that's where I

692
00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:41,400
knew I have to tell this story I mean it

693
00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:43,740
was thanks to that interview with Edgar

694
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:45,540
Mitchell that really inspired me to

695
00:31:51,620 --> 00:31:48,530
write phenomena Wow what a he

696
00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:51,630
interesting journey he had and I can

697
00:31:55,930 --> 00:31:53,400
understand how that could be such a

698
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:55,940
catalyst for this work that you've done

699
00:32:02,480 --> 00:31:58,170
you know any like you mentioned earlier

700
00:32:04,430 --> 00:32:02,490
this is primarily a UFO show so my

701
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:04,440
listeners would probably be remiss if I

702
00:32:11,060 --> 00:32:07,850
didn't ask there is so much skepticism

703
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:11,070
for very good reasons when it comes to

704
00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:14,310
the UFO topic especially within the

705
00:32:18,650 --> 00:32:16,950
scientific community and this goes for

706
00:32:22,580 --> 00:32:18,660
the paranormal and supernatural as well

707
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:22,590
why why do you think you know that there

708
00:32:28,130 --> 00:32:25,200
is such a hard-line debunking or even a

709
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:28,140
hostility as I've heard you say once

710
00:32:34,460 --> 00:32:32,010
these types of subjects I'm fascinated

711
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,470
by it III I mean I have a couple ideas

712
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:36,480
but of course every one of my books

713
00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:38,310
touches upon these issues and I have

714
00:32:45,530 --> 00:32:41,550
interviewed you know literally hundreds

715
00:32:49,220 --> 00:32:45,540
of scientists who work in the Defense

716
00:32:51,530 --> 00:32:49,230
Department and the CIA and have advised

717
00:32:55,490 --> 00:32:51,540
the presidents and have advised the

718
00:32:59,840 --> 00:32:55,500
Joint Chiefs of Staff and have won Nobel

719
00:33:05,180 --> 00:32:59,850
prizes and they are absolutely divided

720
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:05,190
right there are those a majority who you

721
00:33:15,710 --> 00:33:10,770
know loathe the idea of ufology but

722
00:33:20,810 --> 00:33:15,720
there are those a minority who are in

723
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:20,820
the work as I say and you know these are

724
00:33:27,980 --> 00:33:24,330
brilliant minds and so I would be

725
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:27,990
extremely short-sighted to be anything

726
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:30,610
other than open-minded that's my that I

727
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:33,600
take the long the long view right I mean

728
00:33:39,390 --> 00:33:37,330
so why does the debate exist well okay

729
00:33:44,660 --> 00:33:39,400
so hold what I also find interesting is

730
00:33:46,650 --> 00:33:44,670
that as I said the majority of

731
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:46,660
scientists in the Defense Department in

732
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:49,210
the intelligence community are what

733
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:52,510
Gertrude Schneider called goats they

734
00:33:56,660 --> 00:33:54,730
they are scientific skeptics and the

735
00:33:59,220 --> 00:33:56,670
other term Gertrude mindler was a

736
00:34:02,970 --> 00:33:59,230
Harvard experimental psychologist who

737
00:34:05,820 --> 00:34:02,980
created the goats and the sheep paradigm

738
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:05,830
to talk about how people approach UFO or

739
00:34:08,580 --> 00:34:08,290
how people approach any of this subject

740
00:34:11,849 --> 00:34:08,590
matter

741
00:34:13,349 --> 00:34:11,859
yes P psychokinesis any of the you could

742
00:34:17,220 --> 00:34:13,359
call it paranormal you could call an

743
00:34:19,470 --> 00:34:17,230
anomalous cognition sheep are the people

744
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:19,480
on the other side who are open to the

745
00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:22,090
idea or the possibility that this could

746
00:34:30,649 --> 00:34:25,260
be real what I'm fascinated by is that

747
00:34:36,930 --> 00:34:30,659
Gallup polls show that 76% of Americans

748
00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:36,940
are sheep and only 24% are goats so the

749
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:38,950
scientific community is swung the other

750
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:44,970
way but the general public is open to

751
00:34:49,740 --> 00:34:48,250
this idea and I find that general public

752
00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:49,750
interesting because that's where I think

753
00:34:57,780 --> 00:34:53,730
people are working from their

754
00:35:00,030 --> 00:34:57,790
experiences as opposed to their what

755
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:00,040
they think they should think and I do

756
00:35:03,359 --> 00:35:01,810
have to say that I interviewed a lot of

757
00:35:04,830 --> 00:35:03,369
skeptics for that for a phenomena

758
00:35:06,660 --> 00:35:04,840
because that's part of the job of being

759
00:35:08,849 --> 00:35:06,670
a journalist want to tell the neutral

760
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:08,859
story tell the other side but I did I

761
00:35:14,670 --> 00:35:12,130
did find an incredible sort of

762
00:35:16,620 --> 00:35:14,680
snootiness on the part that I found

763
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:16,630
really I kind limiting and I find

764
00:35:21,590 --> 00:35:18,880
unhelpful that people would kind of

765
00:35:24,180 --> 00:35:21,600
insult you know people would say kind of

766
00:35:27,620 --> 00:35:24,190
suggest that you were intellectually

767
00:35:30,030 --> 00:35:27,630
inferior you know for even wanting to

768
00:35:31,890 --> 00:35:30,040
investigate these areas that I find

769
00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:31,900
fascinating and I find it quite fun to

770
00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:33,670
be honest with you to then say well

771
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:34,750
that's your opinion

772
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:36,910
call me intellectually inferior if you

773
00:35:41,310 --> 00:35:39,040
like oh well I'm gonna do this research

774
00:35:42,650 --> 00:35:41,320
and this reporting because boy is it

775
00:35:44,349 --> 00:35:42,660
interesting and boy are these

776
00:35:46,630 --> 00:35:44,359
individuals interesting and

777
00:35:47,859 --> 00:35:46,640
kit Greene told me the best story he's I

778
00:35:51,549 --> 00:35:47,869
write about him at length in the book

779
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:51,559
one of my absolutely most interesting

780
00:35:55,450 --> 00:35:53,359
interviews I think were with green

781
00:36:00,039 --> 00:35:55,460
because of what he's also doing today

782
00:36:01,479 --> 00:36:00,049
with you with you follow G but and again

783
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:01,489
he was Geller you know he looked at the

784
00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:03,410
physiology of Geller and others in the

785
00:36:12,910 --> 00:36:09,430
70s he ended his long career with CIA

786
00:36:14,259 --> 00:36:12,920
retired and is now working again with

787
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:14,269
Defense Department he never stopped

788
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:16,400
working he's on some of the most

789
00:36:22,479 --> 00:36:19,730
prestigious science boards in the nation

790
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:22,489
I mean six months ago he was on general

791
00:36:29,890 --> 00:36:26,480
clapper head of the DNI like a nine or

792
00:36:31,359 --> 00:36:29,900
ten man scientist board to advise the

793
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:31,369
Director of National Intelligence for

794
00:36:36,460 --> 00:36:33,650
the president I mean that's a huge job

795
00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:36,470
and yet what Green told me is when he

796
00:36:44,109 --> 00:36:40,420
lectures at the Pentagon about anomalous

797
00:36:46,589 --> 00:36:44,119
situations you know that we're talking

798
00:36:48,729 --> 00:36:46,599
about which touch upon not just

799
00:36:51,549 --> 00:36:48,739
anomalous mental cognition but also

800
00:36:53,979 --> 00:36:51,559
anomalous visual sightings of things

801
00:36:56,950 --> 00:36:53,989
like orbs and he talks about this and

802
00:37:00,130 --> 00:36:56,960
sort of the the scientists all sit there

803
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,140
you know aghast how dare you talk about

804
00:37:05,470 --> 00:37:03,200
this but up at the coffee break everyone

805
00:37:07,299 --> 00:37:05,480
comes up and ask him questions but no

806
00:37:09,069 --> 00:37:07,309
one wants to talk about it on the record

807
00:37:12,910 --> 00:37:09,079
boy do I think that's interesting that

808
00:37:14,529 --> 00:37:12,920
is I could not mirror that anymore I

809
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:14,539
mean there have been times I've gone to

810
00:37:20,739 --> 00:37:17,170
these UFO conventions which are an

811
00:37:22,269 --> 00:37:20,749
absolute treat I I would love to see

812
00:37:26,769 --> 00:37:22,279
your thoughts on going to one of those

813
00:37:28,479 --> 00:37:26,779
someday but you do you see these very I

814
00:37:30,849 --> 00:37:28,489
guess you could say intellectually

815
00:37:34,690 --> 00:37:30,859
snooty individuals who get up there and

816
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:34,700
talk about the the very objective and

817
00:37:39,309 --> 00:37:36,650
skeptical side of UFOs and then you get

818
00:37:41,410 --> 00:37:39,319
one beer in them and they start telling

819
00:37:44,289 --> 00:37:41,420
you know individual by individual the

820
00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:44,299
real story the stuff they actually have

821
00:37:49,989 --> 00:37:46,430
an honest opinion about it's it's

822
00:37:51,339 --> 00:37:49,999
fascinating it is and it also you know

823
00:37:55,029 --> 00:37:51,349
there's lots of different rabbit holes

824
00:37:56,380 --> 00:37:55,039
to go down and I think that there you

825
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:56,390
just have to you have to pick your

826
00:38:00,309 --> 00:37:57,650
people in essence I mean

827
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:00,319
I know with Edgar Mitchell I what I

828
00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:03,170
found because he he he became very

829
00:38:10,690 --> 00:38:08,569
entrenched in in ufology and in alien

830
00:38:12,069 --> 00:38:10,700
visitations and in my opinion and again

831
00:38:16,029 --> 00:38:12,079
this is just my opinion I leave it out

832
00:38:19,359 --> 00:38:16,039
of the book but my opinion is that he

833
00:38:21,370 --> 00:38:19,369
got used by a number of groups because

834
00:38:24,549 --> 00:38:21,380
of his high-profile nature and they

835
00:38:26,289 --> 00:38:24,559
pulled him into an arena where he was

836
00:38:29,950 --> 00:38:26,299
where he was even more ridiculed if you

837
00:38:33,029 --> 00:38:29,960
will but in essence he's his ideas about

838
00:38:36,910 --> 00:38:33,039
consciousness about the exploration of

839
00:38:40,450 --> 00:38:36,920
the far reaches of what man can know

840
00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:40,460
we're extraordinary you know to think

841
00:38:47,140 --> 00:38:42,710
about and and he dedicated his life to

842
00:38:51,549 --> 00:38:47,150
it I mean he was a PhD from MIT and when

843
00:38:54,220 --> 00:38:51,559
you read the transcript of that you know

844
00:38:55,779 --> 00:38:54,230
Apollo 14 mission or you can read the

845
00:38:58,319 --> 00:38:55,789
chapters in my book on Ed Mitchell

846
00:39:02,589 --> 00:38:58,329
because I condensed them few I mean the

847
00:39:06,220 --> 00:39:02,599
remarkable the remarkable circumstances

848
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:06,230
in which they functioned we're talk

849
00:39:10,180 --> 00:39:08,569
about extraordinary human functioning I

850
00:39:12,279 --> 00:39:10,190
mean that's what the Chinese call their

851
00:39:15,010 --> 00:39:12,289
paranormal programs if you will their

852
00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:15,020
ESP programs extraordinary human body

853
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:16,910
function that's what Mitchell had that's

854
00:39:24,839 --> 00:39:20,210
what he was capable of and yet to be

855
00:39:28,420 --> 00:39:24,849
ridiculed because of his far-reaching

856
00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:28,430
speculative ideas I again I think that's

857
00:39:35,140 --> 00:39:32,630
unhelpful and it's but but there are

858
00:39:36,940 --> 00:39:35,150
degrees to which people take anything

859
00:39:39,279 --> 00:39:36,950
and I also write about some of those

860
00:39:42,339 --> 00:39:39,289
individuals in my book where you can

861
00:39:44,589 --> 00:39:42,349
pursue a subject to the gates of hell

862
00:39:46,690 --> 00:39:44,599
and I you know there's a we haven't

863
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:46,700
spoken about and people can certainly

864
00:39:51,069 --> 00:39:49,010
read phenomenon and get this what I

865
00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:51,079
think is this amazing story of aundrea

866
00:39:59,140 --> 00:39:54,700
Parakh who is one of the early early

867
00:40:01,450 --> 00:39:59,150
MKULTRA doctors and I interviewed his

868
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:01,460
son and I found lost archives I don't

869
00:40:04,510 --> 00:40:02,510
know if they were ever lost maybe they

870
00:40:06,309 --> 00:40:04,520
just were never found in the Library of

871
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:06,319
Congress of letters that he was writing

872
00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:08,450
to different of his benefactors the

873
00:40:13,359 --> 00:40:10,940
Forbes and the Astor's and the DuPont's

874
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:13,369
they were financing his work the CIA was

875
00:40:17,230 --> 00:40:14,690
financing his work the Defense

876
00:40:19,569 --> 00:40:17,240
Department was I mean he was at the

877
00:40:21,849 --> 00:40:19,579
forefront in the ninth in the late 40s

878
00:40:26,890 --> 00:40:21,859
and 50s and 60s of all of his research

879
00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:26,900
but then he became you know a little too

880
00:40:31,210 --> 00:40:29,089
entrenched he took a few too many magic

881
00:40:33,609 --> 00:40:31,220
mushrooms and I mean that literally by

882
00:40:36,730 --> 00:40:33,619
his own admittance in his journals and

883
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:36,740
kind of pursued this to what some would

884
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:38,450
say was the gates of hell so you have

885
00:40:44,260 --> 00:40:40,010
different cautionary tales throughout

886
00:40:47,740 --> 00:40:44,270
phenomena about how far how far will

887
00:40:50,319 --> 00:40:47,750
this go absolutely you know and it is it

888
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:50,329
is endless and it it really depends on

889
00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:52,010
the individual like which route they

890
00:41:00,190 --> 00:40:57,440
take and I do want to touch on the fact

891
00:41:01,930 --> 00:41:00,200
that within your book you mentioned that

892
00:41:03,849 --> 00:41:01,940
most of these programs they were either

893
00:41:06,550 --> 00:41:03,859
like you mentioned moved to a different

894
00:41:07,990 --> 00:41:06,560
Department or they were closed down they

895
00:41:10,690 --> 00:41:08,000
were terminated you know there there

896
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:10,700
wasn't anything to to the public at

897
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:14,450
least to be officially gleaned from

898
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:17,599
these studies do you believe any and I

899
00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:19,250
know that you write about this that they

900
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,609
could still be going on well they

901
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:24,800
absolutely are going on that there is no

902
00:41:30,250 --> 00:41:26,210
question I mean I'll give you an example

903
00:41:33,849 --> 00:41:30,260
the Office of Naval Research explorers

904
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:33,859
what they call premonition and intuition

905
00:41:39,099 --> 00:41:36,530
in sailors and Marines I mean that is

906
00:41:43,630 --> 00:41:39,109
you know they call it anomalous mental

907
00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:43,640
cognition that is a different name for

908
00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:48,079
ESP they another doctor there cause of

909
00:41:52,270 --> 00:41:50,960
the spidey sense they you know there's

910
00:41:54,970 --> 00:41:52,280
another program they call sense making

911
00:41:57,309 --> 00:41:54,980
okay this is the actual definition since

912
00:41:59,440 --> 00:41:57,319
making think about that that's very

913
00:42:03,790 --> 00:41:59,450
broad and vague what they defined it as

914
00:42:07,690 --> 00:42:03,800
the motivated continuous effort to

915
00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:07,700
understand connections among people

916
00:42:16,089 --> 00:42:12,640
places and events in order to anticipate

917
00:42:18,309 --> 00:42:16,099
their trajectories and act effectively I

918
00:42:20,589 --> 00:42:18,319
mean that's premonition right there and

919
00:42:24,460 --> 00:42:20,599
that program the Office of Naval

920
00:42:28,810 --> 00:42:24,470
Research says in interviews was

921
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:28,820
born of a of a situation in Iraq whereby

922
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:33,200
a soldier with the sixth sense said to

923
00:42:37,570 --> 00:42:34,970
his men we're not going down that Street

924
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:37,580
there's an AED buried there they send

925
00:42:43,690 --> 00:42:41,570
the robot out there's an ie D now that

926
00:42:46,750 --> 00:42:43,700
soldier becomes interesting to the

927
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:46,760
Defense Department but in 20 in the

928
00:42:51,970 --> 00:42:50,210
present day in 2017 instead of going

929
00:42:53,950 --> 00:42:51,980
into the laboratory and you know in the

930
00:42:55,780 --> 00:42:53,960
Faraday cage and conducting experiments

931
00:42:57,790 --> 00:42:55,790
right off they're now looking at that

932
00:43:00,130 --> 00:42:57,800
soldier's physiology looking at his

933
00:43:04,330 --> 00:43:00,140
neurobiology and as it was said to me

934
00:43:07,930 --> 00:43:04,340
trying to map that physiology in the

935
00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:07,940
brain and then model it and then

936
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:10,310
accelerate it and because you're talking

937
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:11,810
about the Defense Department the word

938
00:43:18,540 --> 00:43:15,710
accelerate means to weaponize it exactly

939
00:43:21,310 --> 00:43:18,550
right so it's basically you know

940
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:21,320
rewrapping the Christmas present as it

941
00:43:26,740 --> 00:43:24,050
were with a new wrapping brilliant

942
00:43:28,930 --> 00:43:26,750
analogy and again you notice no mention

943
00:43:31,420 --> 00:43:28,940
of the supernatural no mention of the

944
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:31,430
without never mind where the soldier

945
00:43:35,860 --> 00:43:34,610
gets his spidey sense okay and here's

946
00:43:39,460 --> 00:43:35,870
where I think it gets very interesting

947
00:43:41,770 --> 00:43:39,470
because and this is a question because

948
00:43:43,660 --> 00:43:41,780
in the 70s and 80s you would okay find

949
00:43:47,860 --> 00:43:43,670
the CIA can ignore the question where is

950
00:43:49,740 --> 00:43:47,870
it coming from right but now it seems

951
00:43:53,860 --> 00:43:49,750
like what the Defense Department is

952
00:43:59,710 --> 00:43:53,870
leaning into is using computer

953
00:44:01,390 --> 00:43:59,720
technology to legitimize the research in

954
00:44:03,070 --> 00:44:01,400
the same way that the CIA drew the

955
00:44:05,140 --> 00:44:03,080
inescapable conclusion that the

956
00:44:07,780 --> 00:44:05,150
phenomena exist if Defense Department's

957
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:07,790
today can point to a brain scan and say

958
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:10,880
look this is what's going on they can

959
00:44:16,420 --> 00:44:14,090
then finance it and so then the question

960
00:44:19,060 --> 00:44:16,430
which i think is marvelous is my

961
00:44:21,220 --> 00:44:19,070
goodness will the modern era this

962
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:21,230
incredible advance of technology that we

963
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:23,170
have now with computers with nano

964
00:44:28,359 --> 00:44:27,110
technology with nano biotechnology will

965
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:28,369
this advanced

966
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:31,599
Science and Technology allow us to solve

967
00:44:37,299 --> 00:44:34,880
this ancient mystery is it fact is it

968
00:44:42,809 --> 00:44:37,309
fantasy is it science is it the super

969
00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:46,209
will the debate continue and that is

970
00:44:50,529 --> 00:44:47,839
really interesting and exciting to be at

971
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:50,539
that moment in time I think absolutely

972
00:44:55,150 --> 00:44:53,210
and I think your your book and the

973
00:44:58,180 --> 00:44:55,160
subsequent projects that I'm sure will

974
00:45:00,940 --> 00:44:58,190
stem from this book is is the inception

975
00:45:03,130 --> 00:45:00,950
of that question of you know whether

976
00:45:05,829 --> 00:45:03,140
it's real or not how is it being used

977
00:45:07,749 --> 00:45:05,839
and why isn't the public being made

978
00:45:10,180 --> 00:45:07,759
aware of that like you said it is to

979
00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:10,190
weaponize we all know there's no money

980
00:45:17,229 --> 00:45:11,089
in peace

981
00:45:21,279 --> 00:45:17,239
so while these abilities whether from

982
00:45:24,339 --> 00:45:21,289
within or from without could benefit

983
00:45:25,989 --> 00:45:24,349
mankind the idea of this that you've

984
00:45:29,829 --> 00:45:25,999
touched on in most of your books is that

985
00:45:33,839 --> 00:45:29,839
it will always be used as a weapon as a

986
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:33,849
defense said in many respects but

987
00:45:39,130 --> 00:45:35,930
understandable in terms of a military

988
00:45:41,620 --> 00:45:39,140
mindset it's fascinating III look

989
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:41,630
forward to seeing where your research on

990
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:44,960
this goes are you continuing your

991
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:46,400
research into this after the book has

992
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:48,710
been released what's super interesting

993
00:45:54,789 --> 00:45:52,130
to me my heart and soul is in in

994
00:45:59,529 --> 00:45:54,799
journalism as being a reporter but my

995
00:46:02,440 --> 00:45:59,539
books wind up in the world of fiction in

996
00:46:05,459 --> 00:46:02,450
the world of television and that's a

997
00:46:09,219 --> 00:46:05,469
long development process but phenomena

998
00:46:13,209 --> 00:46:09,229
has been is in development now with

999
00:46:17,620 --> 00:46:13,219
Steven Spielberg's Amblin and jason blum

1000
00:46:19,569 --> 00:46:17,630
blum house so you have the company that

1001
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:19,579
brought you you know et and Close

1002
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:21,529
Encounters of the Third Kind and decades

1003
00:46:27,370 --> 00:46:24,890
of movies since merging powers if you

1004
00:46:31,959 --> 00:46:27,380
will with the company that brought you

1005
00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:31,969
Paranormal Activity okay and I'm

1006
00:46:37,709 --> 00:46:34,430
involved in this creatively in terms of

1007
00:46:41,620 --> 00:46:37,719
storytelling and so some of the more

1008
00:46:46,660 --> 00:46:41,630
exciting let's say far out there

1009
00:46:49,059 --> 00:46:46,670
on fact checkable stories which I learnt

1010
00:46:50,769 --> 00:46:49,069
I'm the scientist from the psychics

1011
00:46:53,049 --> 00:46:50,779
while I was writing this project that I

1012
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:53,059
couldn't put in phenomena the narrative

1013
00:46:58,240 --> 00:46:56,690
nonfiction book because they were a

1014
00:46:59,920 --> 00:46:58,250
single sourced and they couldn't be fact

1015
00:47:02,039 --> 00:46:59,930
checked with they couldn't be buttressed

1016
00:47:05,230 --> 00:47:02,049
with you know declassified documents

1017
00:47:07,630 --> 00:47:05,240
those incredible stories which had me at

1018
00:47:11,859 --> 00:47:07,640
the edge of my seat and find their home

1019
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:11,869
in this fictional world and I think that

1020
00:47:17,230 --> 00:47:14,240
is super exciting so when you say will

1021
00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:17,240
the work continue absolutely it'll

1022
00:47:22,299 --> 00:47:20,150
continue that's see that's very exciting

1023
00:47:25,089 --> 00:47:22,309
and we all know you know Spielberg has

1024
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:25,099
been known to put truths into his

1025
00:47:28,660 --> 00:47:26,720
fiction Close Encounters

1026
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:28,670
like you said comes to mind Jacques

1027
00:47:33,660 --> 00:47:31,130
Vallee was featured in that film many

1028
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:33,670
case reports from supposed alien

1029
00:47:39,789 --> 00:47:36,880
encounters were included in that as well

1030
00:47:41,799 --> 00:47:39,799
that's that's very interesting and we

1031
00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:41,809
see that a lot lately with the blending

1032
00:47:48,370 --> 00:47:45,049
of fiction and these small truths being

1033
00:47:50,740 --> 00:47:48,380
almost disclosed to the public so I I

1034
00:47:52,329 --> 00:47:50,750
definitely look forward to that do you

1035
00:47:55,210 --> 00:47:52,339
have any other projects upcoming

1036
00:47:58,990 --> 00:47:55,220
projects coming well I'm always writing

1037
00:48:00,910 --> 00:47:59,000
another book so that's really where my

1038
00:48:04,359 --> 00:48:00,920
heart lies but you know back to that

1039
00:48:08,710 --> 00:48:04,369
idea of of science fiction and science

1040
00:48:10,839 --> 00:48:08,720
fact what you just touched upon where

1041
00:48:14,109 --> 00:48:10,849
the these idea the fiction writers plant

1042
00:48:16,930 --> 00:48:14,119
their plant truths in fiction the

1043
00:48:18,999 --> 00:48:16,940
reverse is also true and maybe this is a

1044
00:48:21,450 --> 00:48:19,009
great little vignette to end upon

1045
00:48:24,849 --> 00:48:21,460
because I found one of my most

1046
00:48:28,539 --> 00:48:24,859
interesting interviews was for the DARPA

1047
00:48:33,009 --> 00:48:28,549
book where I interviewed Charles Townes

1048
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:33,019
who won the Nobel Prize in 1964 for

1049
00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:35,210
inventing the laser okay

1050
00:48:42,430 --> 00:48:38,000
and the laser there is one of arguably

1051
00:48:43,839 --> 00:48:42,440
the most important dual use technology

1052
00:48:45,519 --> 00:48:43,849
advantages of the modern world I mean

1053
00:48:47,859 --> 00:48:45,529
you have laser weapons that's leading

1054
00:48:49,599 --> 00:48:47,869
Pentagon tech technology now all

1055
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:49,609
classified and then you have laser

1056
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:52,130
printers laser eye surgery laser you

1057
00:48:59,800 --> 00:48:55,130
know knee surgery okay and

1058
00:49:03,010 --> 00:48:59,810
Charles Townes was two points that he

1059
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:03,020
that he told me that just really made me

1060
00:49:08,530 --> 00:49:04,880
think bigger and broader than I had

1061
00:49:11,820 --> 00:49:08,540
thought before one was that his idea for

1062
00:49:14,730 --> 00:49:11,830
inventing the laser came to him

1063
00:49:18,250 --> 00:49:14,740
originally the original seed was planted

1064
00:49:23,530 --> 00:49:18,260
when he was a little boy reading science

1065
00:49:24,460 --> 00:49:23,540
fiction Yuri Gagarin the death ray

1066
00:49:26,370 --> 00:49:24,470
that's what it was called

1067
00:49:29,830 --> 00:49:26,380
so the fiction writer had kind of

1068
00:49:32,890 --> 00:49:29,840
conceived the laser you know decades

1069
00:49:35,250 --> 00:49:32,900
before and that inspired towns but then

1070
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:35,260
he told me a really interesting story

1071
00:49:39,940 --> 00:49:38,720
now remember this is a man of science

1072
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:39,950
who won the Nobel Prize

1073
00:49:45,730 --> 00:49:42,050
so we talked earlier about the within or

1074
00:49:48,190 --> 00:49:45,740
though without Charles Townes confirmed

1075
00:49:52,030 --> 00:49:48,200
a story with me that had been good that

1076
00:49:54,850 --> 00:49:52,040
had been reported elsewhere that when he

1077
00:50:00,370 --> 00:49:54,860
was a grown man he was sitting on a park

1078
00:50:04,210 --> 00:50:00,380
bench when the idea of how to create the

1079
00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:04,220
laser came to him and he believed that

1080
00:50:10,780 --> 00:50:08,630
the idea came to him from with out it

1081
00:50:12,730 --> 00:50:10,790
was a Eureka moment for him but it came

1082
00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:12,740
to him from some kind of a supernatural

1083
00:50:18,610 --> 00:50:14,720
being in his case because he was a man

1084
00:50:21,250 --> 00:50:18,620
of faith he defined that as God Wow I

1085
00:50:23,230 --> 00:50:21,260
found this fascinating and it's the

1086
00:50:27,730 --> 00:50:23,240
story I would always use was kind of my

1087
00:50:29,140 --> 00:50:27,740
Charles towns trump card wet and the

1088
00:50:30,970 --> 00:50:29,150
scientific skeptics who I would be

1089
00:50:33,010 --> 00:50:30,980
interviewing would you know kind of

1090
00:50:35,110 --> 00:50:33,020
doubt my intelligence and say you know

1091
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:35,120
no scientists worth his salt ever even

1092
00:50:39,730 --> 00:50:37,570
believes in any such a thing is

1093
00:50:41,590 --> 00:50:39,740
inspiration from a supernatural being

1094
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:41,600
and I could say well that's not what

1095
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:44,480
Charles Townes told me and so you know I

1096
00:50:50,590 --> 00:50:47,570
loved that interview with him I loved

1097
00:50:52,780 --> 00:50:50,600
having and I loved having that idea of

1098
00:50:54,190 --> 00:50:52,790
and by the way he said he went back to

1099
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:54,200
the Princeton Institute for Advanced

1100
00:50:59,800 --> 00:50:56,450
Study and had the debate with Einstein

1101
00:51:00,550 --> 00:50:59,810
and Don von Neumann so it just has this

1102
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:00,560
marvelous

1103
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:08,690
what I think phenomena is about is what

1104
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:11,650
are the reaches of what man can know and

1105
00:51:19,420 --> 00:51:15,650
who gets to decide what is inspiration

1106
00:51:22,660 --> 00:51:19,430
who gets to decide what is getting lost

1107
00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:22,670
and who gets to decide what is science

1108
00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:24,790
fiction and what is science fact

1109
00:51:30,670 --> 00:51:28,190
absolutely and I think your book shows

1110
00:51:33,670 --> 00:51:30,680
that that debate goes on that

1111
00:51:35,770 --> 00:51:33,680
conversation continues and more people

1112
00:51:39,819 --> 00:51:35,780
are opened up to that possibility and

1113
00:51:42,190 --> 00:51:39,829
become that that higher percentage you

1114
00:51:44,859 --> 00:51:42,200
know amongst the skeptics and the

1115
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:44,869
debunkers so I can only imagine the

1116
00:51:48,370 --> 00:51:46,130
inspiration this book is going to have

1117
00:51:51,370 --> 00:51:48,380
on many in the scientific fields the

1118
00:51:54,430 --> 00:51:51,380
hard and soft sciences and to the

1119
00:51:57,550 --> 00:51:54,440
believers and skeptics alike any um it's

1120
00:52:00,030 --> 00:51:57,560
an absolutely fascinating book I can't

1121
00:52:02,260 --> 00:52:00,040
wait for people to hear this today and

1122
00:52:02,890 --> 00:52:02,270
where can we find out more about what

1123
00:52:06,420 --> 00:52:02,900
you're up to you

1124
00:52:08,530 --> 00:52:06,430
annie jacobson comm author website

1125
00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:08,540
awesome in all your work can be found

1126
00:52:11,380 --> 00:52:10,609
there any thank you so much for joining

1127
00:52:14,290 --> 00:52:11,390
us today

1128
00:52:16,690 --> 00:52:14,300
thanks for having me as a pleasure once

1129
00:52:17,980 --> 00:52:16,700
again I want to thank Annie Jacobson for

1130
00:52:20,980 --> 00:52:17,990
coming on the show today

1131
00:52:23,890 --> 00:52:20,990
her area51 book has definitely drawn

1132
00:52:25,420 --> 00:52:23,900
some controversy in the UFO field so it

1133
00:52:27,579 --> 00:52:25,430
was very refreshing to talk about

1134
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:27,589
something completely different with her

1135
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:29,810
again you could find all her books and

1136
00:52:35,559 --> 00:52:32,000
her upcoming speaking engagements at

1137
00:52:37,420 --> 00:52:35,569
annie jacobson calm also if you happen

1138
00:52:39,819 --> 00:52:37,430
to live in the Rochester New York area

1139
00:52:43,210 --> 00:52:39,829
I'll be giving my presentation called

1140
00:52:45,220 --> 00:52:43,220
UFOs first ufology the convergence of

1141
00:52:48,010 --> 00:52:45,230
experience and study I'll be giving that

1142
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:48,020
presentation at the Irondequoit Public

1143
00:52:53,559 --> 00:52:51,440
Library on May 10th at 5:30 p.m. I've

1144
00:52:55,780 --> 00:52:53,569
been invited to speak by the Rochester

1145
00:52:58,450 --> 00:52:55,790
UFO meetup group so if you'd like to

1146
00:53:03,520 --> 00:52:58,460
attend please email Cookie Stringfellow

1147
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:03,530
at cookie Stringfellow at TWU c-calm to

1148
00:53:08,050 --> 00:53:05,839
reserve your spot unfortunately walk-ins

1149
00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:08,060
are not accepted as space is very

1150
00:53:14,140 --> 00:53:11,839
limited so definitely email her ASAP to

1151
00:53:18,220 --> 00:53:14,150
learn more again that's cookie

1152
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:18,230
Stringfellow at TWU c-calm I'll be doing

1153
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:19,910
a meet and greet in selling books prior

1154
00:53:22,490 --> 00:53:20,490
to the

1155
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:22,500
intentions so if you find yourself in

1156
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:24,690
the Rochester New York area please come

1157
00:53:28,670 --> 00:53:26,850
and join us I'd absolutely love to meet

1158
00:53:30,859 --> 00:53:28,680
you if you haven't already please

1159
00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:30,869
consider subscribing rating and

1160
00:53:36,380 --> 00:53:34,110
reviewing the show on iTunes or wherever

1161
00:53:36,830 --> 00:53:36,390
you may listen from it helps more than

1162
00:53:38,570 --> 00:53:36,840
you know

1163
00:53:40,850 --> 00:53:38,580
and hey if you have a friend that may

1164
00:53:41,510 --> 00:53:40,860
find these topics interesting share the

1165
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:41,520
show with them

1166
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:43,530
word of mouth isn't dead yet my friends

1167
00:53:48,770 --> 00:53:46,170
if you have a story guest or topic

1168
00:53:51,410 --> 00:53:48,780
suggestion email me at Sprague at

1169
00:53:53,870 --> 00:53:51,420
somewhere in the skies calm or visit the

1170
00:53:56,660 --> 00:53:53,880
website at somewhere in the skies comm

1171
00:53:59,150 --> 00:53:56,670
follow the show on twitter at somewhere

1172
00:54:02,030 --> 00:53:59,160
skies that's it for this week's episode

1173
00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:02,040
join me next Monday as we travel south

1174
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:05,040
of the border to talk UFOs over Mexico

1175
00:54:09,950 --> 00:54:07,680
with a very special guest and remember

1176
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:09,960
keep your feet on the ground but never

1177
00:54:17,450 --> 00:54:24,060
[Music]

1178
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:27,790
this has been a third kind production to